Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead - Deadspin Comments

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

strangeweather — Tue, 02 May 2006 11:59:47 EDT

I think that's a load of B.S. I've been a Cowboys fan for decades now. When they were good, somehow the breaks went their way. Mostly, that's because no one remembers the days when breaks didn't go their way, because they were generally good enough to overcome them over the long haul. At this point, the Cowboys have basically sucked for a decade. They've made the playoffs a couple of times, but they've never really been a threat to anyone. And for the last decade, the bad calls, lucky bounces, and freak injuries have piled up against them. Why? Because they're not good enough to win consistently without catching a few breaks, so whenever they get a bad bounce, it's all over. The answer isn't to bitch about the calls, it's to build a better team. Maybe someday they actually will. Likewise, I've been a Spurs fan for a couple of decades now. in the 90s, they always got sent home by tougher teams, and the albatross around their neck was that they were "soft." That team got some lousy breaks, too. They solved it by getting tougher, and in '99, they were as tough as any team in the playoffs, and they steamrolled a bunch of other teams. Suddenly, the calls and freak shots seemed to wind up in their favor, instead. In the early years of this decade, they had some truly agonizing losses to the Lakers. They had injuries at the wrong time, the Lakers would mount "lucky" late comebacks when the Spurs had led the whole game, etc. And the Lakers sure as hell seemed to get all the calls. But you know what? The Lakers were the best team then. In 2003, the Spurs had some tough calls and faced some late comebacks, and everything else. But they finally built a better team than the Lakers, and they won it anyway, and fought their way to a title. Since then, the Spurs have both won and lost titles. The Derek Fisher 0.4 second shot was a shitty call that helped swing the difference in '04. But you know what, if they were good enough, the Derek Fisher shot wouldn't have been the difference. So they went back to the drawing board. Of course, there's a lot of times now that they seem to get the calls swinging their way, as well. It sure as hell isn't because the NBA is dying to see one of the smallest markets in the league get to the finals by any means necessary. Maybe it's because they're a smart veteran team that knows how the playoffs work and can capitalize on it. And yeah, the officials affect the game. Of course they do. But like I said above, unless you want a panel of experts stopping play constantly and reviewing every call until everyone reaches consensus, that's always going to be the case. But affecting the game isn't the same as deciding who wins. If the flow of the game is screwed up, both teams have the job of trying to adapt to the new flow. If the game is called too loose or too tight, adapt your play to take advantage of that. If close calls don't go your way, play so well that the calls aren't close. If the refs are calling makeup calls, find a way to take advantage of them. Maybe the Seahawks got "jobbed" because the Steelers had a lot more playoff experience, and they were better able to take advantage of the way the game was being called and the situations that the refs created. Unequivocally, that is part of the game. Either way, the bottom line is that if your team is "maybe" good enough for a title if you catch the breaks, your team isn't really good enough. Sorry if you don't like that.

strangeweather

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

T-dawg — Tue, 02 May 2006 02:57:13 EDT

officiating is no more random luck than perception is equal in everyone's eyes... and when it comes down to perception, "the best teams make their own luck" = "the best teams make their own luck, hence they get the calls, hence they make their own luck, hence they are better, hence only a team that is "legitimately better" will beat them. what does that mean, legitimately better? does it mean that a team has to be legitimately better to get the win against a team that "makes its own luck?" Is that fair? and why doesn't the "make their own luck" team have to be "legitimately better" to win? Why are they off the hook in the expectation arena for what it takes for them to win? And where exactly is this luck factory where these teams make their luck? i wanna know, cause my Seattle teams must be having some issues with their factory workers or something. Officials calls hinge on their perception... and during the days in Detroit, all 2 weeks going in we heard "Steelers are a team of destiny" and "Seahawks are from the weak NFC" blah blah blah... don't you think the officials heard some of that? i am pretty sure the one that lives in pittsburgh did. all week. did it affect him? perhaps. definitely didn't help us out. it doesn't 'all equal out in the end' and it isn't like poker. some teams get calls, some teams don't. once in a while a team that typically doesn't get the calls actually does. Then all you Yankee/Laker/UConn/Stealer fans get to say, "See, it equals out, and the best team wins despite the officiating." Yet, typically they don't win despite it... they win with it being a non-factor, or they win because of it. If you think officials don't affect games, you remind me of an old Dennis Miller rant (back when he was funny.) "If you didn't think smoking was bad for you, you're lying through the hole in your trachea. It's fucking smoke!!!" Officials affect every single game they are a part of. A) they make inconsitent calls that fuck up the flow of the game, changing from possession to possession, quarter to quarter, etc. B) they call a game too loose/tight giving one team an advantage due to that team's skillset C) they make many close calls, every single one of which falls in the favor of the same team (see Super Bowl) D) they make it even, almost the way kids do in a pickup game-- they call "makeup calls" and make certain to be judicial if not consistently correct (sometimes this leads to ex. A, but most people will take it happily compared to some of the otehr examples) finally... E)they affect the game by keeping a tight crisp flow, being consistent, and making us forget they are even there.

T-dawg

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

strangeweather — Mon, 01 May 2006 12:14:27 EDT

Fleury, Good grief. Get over it. 1. Maybe the Lakers get more calls, maybe they don't -- mostly the refs favor aggressiveness, for whichever team. But either way, legitimately better teams will find a way to beat them -- do you think the refs could really be the difference in a Lakers-Pistons series? The question is, are the Suns a legitimately better team? Or are they just a hamstrung team with key injuries that is just playing out the string? 2. "Teams and athletes have a finite number of chances to play on the big stage." This is true. And bad calls are like injuries -- they happen at the worst possible time. But unless an NBA team gets utterly jobbed in all 4 losses in a 7-game series, they had plenty of other chances to win. The best teams make their own luck, and they prove that freak losses were freak losses by winning the other games. 3. Officiating is random luck, and it was intended that way. The alternative is for a 17-person panel of experts to stop play and review every call until consensus is reached about the proper outcome. But who the fuck would want to watch a sport like that? And I don't buy for a second that officiating is any worse than it has ever been. The refs are the refs, and very little changes.

strangeweather

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Seitz — Mon, 01 May 2006 11:30:55 EDT

Well, they did beat UCLA. TWICE. Let's not ignore the fact that I'm pretty sure Kelvin Kim was UCLA's seventh man in one of those games, and just about everyone else was playing hurt. The other game was nothing but a free throw shooting contest, and congratulations, Washington shoots free throws better than UCLA. And insomniac was right. I was talking about the Illinois travesty.

Seitz

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Iron Chef Xenu — Mon, 01 May 2006 11:29:11 EDT

@silver lining: Not only did he stink with the Knicks, but he was such a douche early on with the Bulls that they sent his ass home. It was more worth it to pay him to not be there than it was to have him even just warming the bench. And STILL someone will be dumb enough to give him too much money. If he can only get someone's midlevel, which, if a one year deal, would be worthwhile because without a multiyear deal he couldn't get away with his attitude evocative of Joe Barely Cares, then maybe some of the NBA teams are finally wising up to him. He's already gotten a wholly undeserved max contract once. As our Fearless Leader once said, fool me once, shame on you, fool me -- you can't get fooled again.

Iron Chef Xenu

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

William — Mon, 01 May 2006 11:09:48 EDT

Actually, I compared the Seahawks to the Steelers as they were both royally screwed by the refs at some point in the playoffs.

William

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Captain Caveman — Mon, 01 May 2006 10:57:57 EDT

William, you were in the clear until you compared the Seahawks to the Colts. BB, your (seemingly) media-influenced distortion of history re: Jerramy Stevens did it for me. T-Dawg more or less covered my pro-'Hawks stance but did little to heal the endless rage that will forever, forever, forever burn. Perhaps I'd be best off stabbing myself in the heart, Elliott Smith-style.

Captain Caveman

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Bleacher Bum — Mon, 01 May 2006 10:43:28 EDT

Wow, I've only been commenting for a few days and I've already made a "to stab" list. I'm honored!

Bleacher Bum

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

William — Mon, 01 May 2006 10:26:05 EDT

I make the "To Stab" list by agreeing with you? Damn. Remind me never to cross you!

William

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Captain Caveman — Mon, 01 May 2006 10:21:37 EDT

Strike that first "discussion." I is retarted.

Captain Caveman

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Captain Caveman — Mon, 01 May 2006 09:59:07 EDT

I'll let the discussion the officiating discussion go, but William and Bleacher Bum are now on my "To Stab" list.

Captain Caveman

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

silver lining — Mon, 01 May 2006 08:31:12 EDT

Okay, I'm completely on board with the "Suns got jobbed" theme; they did, especially Luke Walton's man-love for James Jones. But can we focus on something else for a second? Specifically, I'd like to point out that Tim Thomas may have already wrapped up this year's Jerome James Memorial Albatross Contract. The only thing standing in his way is that he's already been crappy on the Knicks. Can we start a pool to guess at his contract?

silver lining

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Big Daddy Drew — Mon, 01 May 2006 07:24:35 EDT

Hey, where are all the jokes in this thread? Bad commenters, bad! Quit whining, Suns fans. In this country, it's legal to mug a Canadian anyway.

Big Daddy Drew

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Fleury — Mon, 01 May 2006 06:01:21 EDT

Fighting Apostle, there's three problems with your poker analogy: 1. I don't think calls even up in the end because certain teams will get the calls -- the UConn's, the Yankee's, the Laker's of the world. 2. Teams and athletes have a finite number of chances to play on the big stage. Admittedly, a final table is tough, but a poker player's life is defined through evening out the odds over multiple WSOP's and other tournaments. A Super Bowl team or a Tourney team is catching lighting in a bottle compared to poker. Plus, your career is dictated by your team and other random circumstances. 3. Finally, I don't want to say that officiating has to be random luck. It shouldn't. Luck is designed to be the random wind in a poker game. Officiating is not designed to be random. I think it has only gotten worse and the leagues should do something about it instead of making excuses. Efforts like Questec and the new NHL hockey rules have been put in place for a reason. If the leagues aren't satisfied with their officiating, why should the viewer?

Fleury

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

The Fighting Apostle — Mon, 01 May 2006 05:34:11 EDT

Jesus, are we still talking about the officiating in the Super Bowl? This is ridiculous. What happened happened and although bad officiating is a problem in sports, it has to be taken with a grain of salt because although it can hurt alot when it hurts your team in a big game, the calls all even out over the long run. The best analogy I can think of is to poker. Getting a bad beat put on you can really hurt, but an experienced player is able to put it behind them, (most of the time) because they know that it all balances out in the long run. In 2000 T.J. Cloutier lost the World Series of Poker because Chris Ferguson's A8 got lucky against his AK. Cloutier had been chasing a Main Event bracelet his entire career, so the loss definitely stung, but he sucked it up and put it behind him because he knew that those things happened and like it or not, it was part of the game. Like it or not, bad officiating has become part of the game in modern sports, (probably was way back when too, but people had other things to worry about) so while we can and should continue to work to fix it, we all need to just accept it for now as an uncontrolable variable in the outcome.

The Fighting Apostle

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

insomniac — Mon, 01 May 2006 01:47:15 EDT

T-Dawg: I wanted Wash to beat UConn too, but you can't just set aside the Mike Jensen foul. If he doesn't make what was probably the worst play of the entire tournament, then all of the officiating becomes moot. Wash has noone to blame but themselves. I think Seitz was referring to the Wash/Illinois game when he eloquently pointed out that the Huskies had benefited from officiating to reach the next round. I'm a UCLA alum, so I guess my only chance to bitch about officiating is to say that Noah should have been T'd up for hanging on the rim on one of his 7,435 dunks in the finals.

insomniac

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

T-dawg — Mon, 01 May 2006 01:47:07 EDT

Fleury, we park our cars in the same garage, my friend. no... they were screwed once. one big play. that's it. not call after call after call... i was in a bar in denver and strangers were coming up to me in my lofa tatupu jersey and saying, "you guys are getting screwed!" is it really winning when instead of overcoming obstacles, you get to see them put in front of the other team and not yours. i seriously hate this subject when assclowns think they can tell a seattle fan we are over-reacting. no city has had such bad luck with sports, and on those rare occasions when our team pulls a Taft and rises out of the bowels of lethargy, the officials help tip the scales against us.

T-dawg

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

William — Mon, 01 May 2006 01:32:44 EDT

By "Hawks," do you mean the Atlanta Hawks? Or are you using a nickname for the Seahawks without the obligatory " ' "? As in, "the 'Hawks"? One thing you've overlooked in your "the 'Hawks got screwed by the refs" diatribe is that the Steelers were also royally screwed by the refs in the Colts game but somehow still won. That's what winners do--they overcome all of the obstacles. The losers go home and bitch about the refs.

William

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Fleury — Mon, 01 May 2006 01:24:14 EDT

Whenever some blowjob by the refs to a more noted team happens, I find both of these arguments silly: 1. The other team/Kobe Bryant/Steelers/UConn had to play well in the end by hitting the game-winning shot/the game-tying shot/touchdown to win so who cares 2. Or if the team that got jobbed -- Seahawks/Suns/Huskies had just played well and overcome the ref's mistakes like a good team, they would have won, so who cares You know why? Everything matters in a game, and to argue that it doesn't matter because the refs only *contributed* to a loss rather than was the entire cause of a loss is just plain silly to me. Their job is to call a game even. And if they help one team win versus the other, then that team didn't get a fair break, and that *does* matter.

Fleury

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

T-dawg — Mon, 01 May 2006 01:08:26 EDT

Yes, Washington "Freaking" Huskies. Let's see... I wonder why people from the NW would be pissed. First the Hawks, then the Huskies, in a span of 2 months. Did the Huskies have the talent and toughness to win the NCAA's? Well, they did beat UCLA. TWICE. They did own the game against UConn, one Mike Jensen idiotic foul aside. (And many many many poor calls.) What do you mean on the good end of a total rape job? Which, for that matter, begets the fact that you just said there IS a good end to a rape job.

T-dawg

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

spinachdip — Mon, 01 May 2006 00:12:03 EDT

And here I was, hoping Deadspin was one place on the internet where I could escape from references to, descriptions of, or photographs depicting anal raping. How naive of me.

spinachdip

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Seitz — Mon, 01 May 2006 00:09:43 EDT

s actually costing deserving teams (if you consider the Seahawks, Suns, Angels, and Washington Huskies "deserving") championships. Washington Freaking Huskies? Look, it's sad and all that UConn got all the calls in that game, but when you consider that Washington had to be on the good end of a total rape job just to get into that position, well, it kind of takes the steam out of any sympathy people can generate.

Seitz

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

T-dawg — Mon, 01 May 2006 00:01:22 EDT

Bleacher Bum... you must have been out in the sun all day.. Stevens didn't say shit to Porter (who, coincidentally, was Walter Jones' bitch all Super Bowl). Stevens made very bland comments about planning to win (little did he know the zebras had it in for the hawks just as much as the national media). Porter, class act that he is (NOT), blew it completely out of proportion, going as far as to make some assclown comment about who you would want in a dark alley. For the record, I would prefer the more imposing 6'7" Stevens to be on my side... But more importantly-- please... DO NOT ever again compare game 4 of a 7 game series with the super bowl. Especially if you are a freakin' Suns fan. You want to compare, try Western Conference Finals, 93, in which the Sonics got an anal raping from the zebras against your Suns. Seattle teams get raped by officials. Don't tell me the super bowl wasn't at least affected by the refs.. you are wasting your breath and my patience. And Stevens did drop a couple balls, yes.. but he caught a big one at the 2 that would have led to a 98 yard 4th quarter come from behind SB drive... if the official wouldn't have "thought" he saw holding. Yeah.. i said thought... or "assumed" because if you read the NFL Rules/Competition Committee statement, their point of emphasis on holding was for the officials to make sure they see it if they call it, instead of just calling it if they assume a hold could have happenend. GOD DAMMIT. I come home from a round of golf and a softball double header to read this crap! back to the therapist. Hopefully Tony Soprano will order a hit on somebody... cause i want blood.

T-dawg

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

William — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 23:48:29 EDT

That's right--on the extreme close-up replay (almost as if Nash dribbled straight to the camera and stopped), there's no indication he was trying to do anything other than draw a foul. Also, I don't remember any Laker hacking at him like they were trying to foul--it basically turned into a double screw-up and Walton bailed the Lakers out by getting the jump ball (and, thus, allowing Nash's screwup to reign supreme). If Nash had been focused on getting a timeout instead of drawing a foul, Phoenix probably wins the game. If that had happened to Kobe, I'm sure some of you would be pointing out how selfish he was in wanting to shoot free throws instead of protecting the ball. In the end, though, you can't bitch and moan about the officials--even though we all do it--because that's just another element that teams sometimes have to overcome to win ballgames.

William

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

strangeweather — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 23:10:05 EDT

phxphreak04, Stop whining. Blaming the refs is for losers. From today's San Antonio paper (RE: the non-call when Ginobili seemingly got fouled on the last play of Friday's loss to Sacto): [Popovich] thinks those who give excuses are looking for them, and he thinks the next step is giving in. That's why he also sees the last three minutes of Friday night like this: The refs were letting the two teams play. Calls could have gone both ways. So when Ginobili did the one thing he couldn't do - when he gave Bibby a perfect chance to gamble with a hard steal - he had no one to blame but himself. Bottom line: if you really do enough to win the game, there won't be anything the refs can do to stop it.

strangeweather

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Bleacher Bum — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:57:49 EDT

I can come up with an example of Jerramy Stevens dropping about 50 passes to help cost the Seahawks Super Bowl XL...after he'd spent the week talking shit to Joey Porter, on top of that.

Bleacher Bum

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

catsfan37 — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:32:32 EDT

On the reply of Nash supposedly trying to call a timeout I never saw his lips move or signal in any way for a timeout. As for Diaw, I don't know, I didn't see any replay of him. However, if the ref couldn't see him there was no way he could have heard him, the crowd was going nuts at that point...

catsfan37

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

phxphreak04 — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:19:51 EDT

Hoagie - You really think that the refs fuck it up equally for every team? Can you give me an example of the Steelers losing Super Bowl XL because of the refs?

phxphreak04

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Hoagie with Pastrami — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:13:42 EDT

So it's now safe to say that the officiating in every major sport is atrocious (when the calls go against my team, the team I bet on, or FOR a team I hate) and is actually costing deserving teams (if you consider the Seahawks, Suns, Angels, and Washington Huskies "deserving") championships. I dunno, I'm just tired of whining about the refs in the playoffs in EVERY sport during the postseason. I mean, let's face it, the refs always fuck it up equally for every team. No one's out to get your team. You lost, get over it. If you don't like bad officiating, and you refuse to watch badly officiated sports, then just don't watch sports at all because the officials are never going to be perfect in any sport. Shit happens. (PS. I really hate the Lakers too.)

Hoagie with Pastrami

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

strangeweather — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:42:10 EDT

I'm not sure which has been more entertaining these playoffs: watching the Steve Nash bubble get popped or watching the Heat start to collapse in on themselves playing a team without a fraction of the raw talent but that actually plays as a team.

strangeweather

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Chris Clarke — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:20:02 EDT

As bad as the officiating might have been (if you're a Suns fan), it was the most exciting game of the playoffs by a mile. And, it had a few of those moments that will be replayed for years to come. Amazing game, happy to have seen it.

Chris Clarke

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Killa Sam — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:09:50 EDT

The refs did give LA the extra chances, but... Kobe Bryant. How did he come up with 2 miracle shots in 5 minutes when he's been going out of his way not to shoot. He's once in a lifetime phenomenal.

Killa Sam

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Captain Caveman — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:05:29 EDT

The Seahawks comparison is about right -- bad officiating, but also the winning team stepped up and made plays when it counted most. Kobe Bryant is one black mamba of a crunch-time shooter. Aww crap, now the bile's collecting in my stomach again. First T-Dawg brought it up in an earlier comment thread, and now MJD. I desperately want Super Bowl XL erased from my brain.

Captain Caveman

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

BowdenBowdenBowden — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:53:35 EDT

I haven't seen as egregious a call as the no-call on Michael Finley contesting a rebound against Jon Barry from out of bounds (last year's Mavs/Rockets series), but nevertheless, the refereeing has been more like reefereeing. I can't think of any other reason that the refs would miss so many travels, holds and even shooting fouls. The last Cavs/Wizards game was pretty atrocious, officiating-wise. I know they give LeBron breaks, but . . . yeesh.

BowdenBowdenBowden

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

JD — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:38:28 EDT

The ref's throughout the whole NBA Playoff's thus far have been below adequate. Guess its there time to take a spotlight.

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

phxphreak04 — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:18:02 EDT

Although I am a Suns fan, I think we can pretty much all agree that officiating was a major factor in this game, and certainly went the way of the Lakers. The Suns basically won twice, once in regulation and once in overtime, but the Lakers got bailed out in about 8 different ways. I couldn't imagine being a Seahawks fan - I'm furious and we only lost game 4 of the first round of the NBA playoffs.

phxphreak04

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

The Big Picture — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:11:39 EDT

only in LA...fucking lakers. they better get swept next round.

The Big Picture

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Bleacher Bum — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:02:19 EDT

The refs were abysmal and pretty much handed L.A. the game, but it never would've worked if Kobe doesn't stick two amazing buzzer-beating shots. I've been plugging Nash as MVP all year, but if the Lakers win this series, I'm eatin' crow.

Bleacher Bum

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

Fleury — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:57:49 EDT

I already posted this under an earlier thread since I was so angry... but... The Lakers game this afternoon was a pathetic display by the refs. Absolutely terrible. I knew the NBA was a fraud for awhile now, but this is going to make it easier not to waste my time watching the playoffs. That last "tie-up" against Steve Nash was incredible. It looked like the ref (Bennett Salvatore?) was willing to wait as long as it took, with as many hacks as it took, for the Lakers to get the ball back. I think two players -- Nash and Diaw were asking for time-outs.

Fleury

Lakers Take 3-1 Series Lead

The City — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:56:34 EDT

Here in Santa Cruz, ABC switched to "The Best of the Dean Martin Variety Show" hosted by Regis Philbin with a minute to go in overtime. Maybe I was the lucky one because I didn't have to see it.

The City